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Can Foreigners Adapt to Chinese Culture?
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muyongshi -

On July 8th, 2004 at 8:10am Roddy, in this thread, wrote:



Quote:

If anyone wants to reopen the topic, they're welcome. Hopefully it'll be more useful second time
around.

And I want to reopen it

I read through the entire thing and didn't find many useful opinions in it but I was hoping to
have a nice, friendly discussion on the degree to which a foreigner can understand AND assimilate
into Chinese Culture. I personally think it is a moot point to argue the can or can't (heck it's a
moot point to argue anyway) but I think a good discussion would be on the degree of understanding
we can obtain and the degree of assimilation that can be attained.

I was thinking about this because I have a teacher that anytime we sit there not understanding
what she means and (more as a result of disagreement than anything else) she will immediately say
it is because we don't understand culture. Now, in regards to this specific teacher, it has been
proven on many occasions that what her viewpoint is merely opinion and not a cultural viewpoint
(long story) but it raises the interesting question of what is cultural understanding and what is
merely a person's personal viewpoint. Obviously culture plays a part in forming many opinions but
that is not always the case.

So topic reopen for discussion! Have at 'er and please do play nice



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adrianlondon -

I've had quite a few extremely odd conversations with mainland Chinese, both on MSN and in real
life. These tend to be male, in their 20s. Not because they're the strange ones, but because
they're who I wanted to chat with ;)

It seems many people (based on my skewed sample) can't formulate an argument at all, or come up
with an opinion. This must be down to the way they're taught at school.

Once you start to prove someone wrong, or simply open up the possibility that another view point
may exist, they revert to the "this is China, you don't understand" argument, even if the topic at
hand has nothing to do with China at all.

From complex conversations (trying to explain the differences between China/Taiwan and Great
Britain / Northern Ireland) to simple ones (why don't you open the menu and order something your
Mum may not have cooked) it's, well, odd.

I know "odd" isn't a good word to summarise this, but some conversations simply leave me so
confused as to how the other person formulated their idea (I've learnt that they didn't, they just
regurgitate something they were taught even if they can then say something totally contradictory a
few seconds later) that "odd" is the only way I can describe it.

I'm sure they view the fact I use analogies and examples from one scenario to help explain/learn
another equally "odd".










muyongshi -

I do understand the feeling of "odd" as you so adequately put it and I do get this but not all the
time... I think maybe I don't ask why as much as I just "when in rome do as the romans do" but you
mentioned something about education...

Are you saying that you think they were taught/raised up to believe that their cultural (even
though some of the things you mentioned aren't necessarily unique to their culture- why not order
another dish for example...) is non comprehensible to the outside world or that they are just
taught "don't ask" type of attitude?

I mean we have ideas too that aren't formulated in logical thinking and then once we are
confronted with them we realize that (I think many on this forums though just have developed that
skill a tad better than others and we are more willing in said circumstance then to reanalyze and
then adapt our thinking...)










liuzhou -

I do hope you mean a 'moot point' rather than a 'mute' one!










muyongshi -

What did you call me??? Thanks...changed it...










liuzhou -

You only changed one of them!










muyongshi -

Who wrote that twice?! It sure wasn't me...










gato -



Quote:

Once you start to prove someone wrong, or simply open up the possibility that another view point
may exist, they revert to the "this is China, you don't understand" argument, even if the topic at
hand has nothing to do with China at all.

The mainland Chinese education system trains people to be close-minded. People are used to
regurgitating what the teacher says and have a hard time formulating new arguments. This is
particularly true for people who are trained in 文科 (non-math/science/engineering). 理科
students, at least, are encouraged to solve math/physics problems in new ways, but not everyone
can transfer those problem-solving skills to other areas of life.

When they have to explain something they haven't thought about before, they tend to become very
inarticulate. When dealing with foreigner, it's obviously much easier to just say "it's too hard
for you to understand," when what they really mean is that they are not articulate enough to
explain it, particularly in English, but the same problem exists when the conversation is in
Chinese, though to a lesser degree.


Quote:

I know "odd" isn't a good word to summarise this, but some conversations simply leave me so
confused as to how the other person formulated their idea (I've learnt that they didn't, they just
regurgitate something they were taught even if they can then say something totally contradictory a
few seconds later) that "odd" is the only way I can describe it.

The difference between Western thinking and Chinese thinking is clear if you compare Socrates to
Confucius. Socrates focused on basic definition of words and logical connection between arguments
(e.g. syllogism). Confucius's "method" was usually to state that the ancestors did it this way,
therefore we ought to do it this way.










yonglin -

For some reason, i also - just like adrianlondon - usually end up talking with guys in their 20s
on msn/skype/qq. However, I've talked to a few (not many) who were extremely bright and could make
stunningly informed, lucid and coherent arguments on complex topics, including social and
political issues in the Chinese context. Nonetheless, there is little doubt that the education
systems of China and most Western countries are quite different.

As for cultural assimilation, I would say that this is perfectly possible - in theory. However, I
would argue that it requires a few preconditions, which might or might not exist in China.

1. Willingness to assimilate. I think this is the major reason that foreigners in China (as well
as foreigners in a lot of Western countries) never assimilate. Just as argued in the previous
thread, many people from Western countries have the idea that their culture is superior to the
Chinese. After all, their own countries enjoy a higher level of economic development and political
stability, and are probably a major hotspot for innovation and research. "Assimilation" (as
opposed to "integration") essentially requires abandoning your native culture, which many people
are quite unwilling to do, especially if they find the new culture to be inferior. [Personally,
I'd say that the current situation in China is the consequence of a complex series of historical
contingencies, but I know that many people would rather attribute it to Chinese culture as such
(claiming that it is intrinsically "backwards").]

2. Time. It takes about 15-20 years or so before a child is appropriately "culturally
assimilated". Of course, we usually don't use the word "cultural assimilation" to describe kids
growing up, but if you think about raising children, it is essentially the same thing as
assimilating them: i.e., making them understand cultural and communicative subtleties and the
moral values and ideas of their native communities. Naturally, the more different your own culture
is from the culture you wish to assimilate into, the longer it will take. I know of a guy who's
originally German but came to Sweden around 20. When I got to know him (he was then about 28 or 29
or so), he was perfectly assimilated, about to complete his PhD thesis in law at Stockholm
University and complained about the poor Swedish writing skills of Swedish law students. My
estimate would be that it would take at least 10-15 years for a Westerner to assimilate into
Chinese culture, even if the conditions are ideal.

3. Someone willing to assimilate you. If the natives of the new country don't want you to
assimilate, you cannot assimilate. This is simply because in order to be appropriately
indoctrinated by the new culture, you would have to be treated like a native by the natives in the
new country. I think this (in addition to 1) could be a major reason why Westerners assimilate
less readily in China than people of Asian decent. And if you think about it, how many Westerns in
China can - honestly - say that the Chinese treat them just like other Chinese?










dalaowai -

I think that it's impossible for foreigners to truly adapt to Chinese culture due to a few reasons.

- Chinese society doesn't want to allow us to fully integrate into their culture
- We know too much about China's history, therefore we will always "not understand" Chinese culture












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